If your inbox is anything like ours, it’s a crowded space but an important one. Email can provide an asynchronous, personal, and curated experience in an environment that offers publishers a degree of control and experimentation. But how do you make your newsletter stand out?
Eva Scazzero, Product Manager at Quartz, does it by treating email as a way to build community. “We try the best we can to make it a two way street,” she says of Quartz’s Obsession newsletter, which takes a deep dive into a different topic every day.
In the first year, 10,000 individual people wrote in a response to Obsession. Eva talks with us about building reader engagement through email, the first time a reader response made it into a newsletter, and how the constraints of email actually afford opportunities for creativity. Sachin and Andrew discuss the importance of email and user feedback and go +1/-1 on things they’re nostalgic about, like AIM and Blockbuster.
- Mezcal, Quartz Obsession
- Quartz Emails
- Why homepages might matter more than social media, especially for political content, Megan Radogna, Parse.ly
Megan: Okay. Do you guys have your phones out? Because I was going to start with a pop quiz, but you’re allowed to cheat.
Sachin: I do.
Megan: Do you Andrew?
Andrew: I can get mine, yeah. It’s right here.
Megan: Alright. So, how many emails are in your inbox right now?
Andrew: Oh, that one I know instantly. I don’t even have to cheat for that. I have over 1500 emails in my inbox right now. It’s a disaster. It’s the only time in my life it’s gotten this bad.
Megan: Oh, my gosh. Unread? 1500 unread?
Sachin: No way.
Andrew: Yeah. Skimmed, read and unread. Yeah.
Megan: How about you, Sachin?
Sachin: Well, right now I have 9 inboxes and so I don’t know the total—
Andrew: He doesn’t even have one inbox.
Sachin: No, sorry, 8 inboxes and I don’t know what the total is across them. But, let’s see. 14, 7, 11, 4, 10, 6, 21, 7. And then one is empty.
Megan: Okay, so—
Sachin: I never knew Megan’s question would get this complicated an answer from the two of us.
Megan: I’m honestly shocked. I thought it was going to be high, but that’s pretty high. That’s a lot.
Andrew: I will say that Sachin and I have both obsessed about inbox zero for a long time and I know there are long stretches were we’ve kept it at zero. Not today.
Megan: (01:22) So true. Welcome to the Center of Attention. The podcast exploring how digital behavior relates to the attention economy at large. I’m Megan Radogna, the show’s producer, and I’m here with Parse.ly’s co-founders and the show’s co-hosts, Sachin Kamdar and Andrew Montalenti. Hi Sachin.
Sachin: What’s up?
Megan: Hi Andrew.
Andrew: Hi there.
Megan: (01:40) Alright. So this is the point that I wanted to make: that our inboxes are really crowded space. Last episode, we talked with Danya Henninger, who’s the editor at Billy Penn about how they grow membership and in that conversation, newsletters came up. Newsletters were really core to their strategy and especially in encouraging return visitors.
I want to come back to that topic and get a little bit more specific about creating email and building emails that are going to stand out in these inboxes that have nine inboxes or 1500 emails—these spaces that are crowded but are important. People read their email and people have their phones on them all the time.
To go deeper into the topic, I touched base with Quartz’s product manager, Eva Scazzero. Quartz has a fantastic lineup of newsletters and Eva’s in the thick of it. She explained what goes into the process of creating an engaging newsletter and how they build community through email, especially using examples from their email called Obsession.
Sachin: (02:43) I just want to talk a little bit about how important email is to me, personally. To the degree where, I was walking my dog the other morning—I think I talked about this is another episode—I don’t have anything on me, so it’s my time to just think about stuff. I was just thinking about what I would be doing as CEO of Parse.ly if I didn’t have a computer and I wasn’t in email. I don’t know what people did before computers and email.
When they were running things, they were just writing stuff down? That sounds insane to me. It sounds so slow.
Megan: (03:18) I guess that’s why the mail room was so-
Sachin: (03:20) Like hopping.
Megan: (03:21) That’s the place to be.
Sachin: (03:22) That’s how you made it. Right?
Megan: (03:23) Yeah.
Sachin: (03:24) I guess so. I guess that’s the case. And so I think it’s really important. I think if you’re really trying to grab somebody’s attention, though email is a very old system in the digital modern age, it’s still a very important way that a bunch of different people spend their time, especially, I think, at work.
Andrew: (03:44) Yeah. Do you think that email is going to endure even with younger generations? Because I’ve heard some people say that college students and high school students they think email is this really weird boring place. Very formal.
Sachin: (03:59) Well, Andrew, you know this just as much as I do. There’s been a startup Silicon Valley effort maybe over the past ten years to kill email. Right?
Andrew: (04:11) Oh, yeah.
Sachin: (04:12) And that’s been done in a variety of different ways—
Andrew: (04:15) RIP Google Wave.
Sachin: (04:16) That’s what I was about to say. I remember when we were first starting Parse.ly, we were in that factory with our desk and we were watching the Google Wave introduction that was going to destroy email. And that was a failure.
And I think there are innovations that have come up that help drive better communication in some respects, like Slack. But Slack certainly has not killed email for me like they claimed they would do when they first launched. If anything, I treat my inbox as more important dedicated communication time than I do on Slack.
In a certain way, it’s made email a little bit more important for me. I think it will stand the test of time. There’s something to the a-syncness of it where you’re getting information as you decide how to get the information and you’re creating information as you decide how to create information. It’s within your control. It doesn’t exist in something that is more real time driven. More push and pull driven by external factors.
Andrew: (05:24) I guess the controversial view I’ll take is that if Google and similar services hadn’t made email really easy through hosted services like Gmail, I think email might have actually had a chance of dying. If it all relied upon you having to configure some desktop or mobile email client and connect to servers and authenticate yourself that way, the way email used to work. Then I think it would just be as good as dead.
But I think because it has turned into this open protocol that also has really good apps built around it like Gmail and it’s just as easy to set up an email account as it is to set up any social media account or anything else, I think it’s got a good chance of enduring as a result of that.
Sachin: (06:11) Yeah, I just think it’s interesting that it has endured given all the different ways we can communicate now ranging from snail mail to phone calls to text messages to social platforms to real time chat to Snapchat, disappearing stuff to all these different platforms that we could use, it’s still amazing to me that email just hasn’t gone away because every single year, there’s a new way to communicate with somebody.
Andrew: (06:43) Well, I think it’s because email has something essential that all those other platforms don’t which is that it’s asynchronous and you read it on your own schedule. Right? I think that people still, for example, why do people use email newsletters at all? For example, you could just go to quartz.com and visit the content. Why sign up for a newsletter? Why sign up for any number of newsletters that other publishers put out?
And the answer is because I want to be able to get an update when news comes out and this curated view of content. But I want to read it on my own schedule and maybe if I have a few minutes to kill and I’m checking my inbox anyway, I’ll check that out, but I’m not going to explicitly remember to go back to a site over and over again just to get an update.
Megan: (07:28) It’s personal.
Andrew: (07:30) Yeah. It’s personal to you and yeah, it gets you into a habit that’s different. It’s more of a feed reading habit rather than a web browsing habit which has a lot more intent associated with it.
And then I think for what you were saying about being a CEO of a company in general in business and in management, how pervasive email is for teams and for cross-team communication. It’s the same exact reason. Right? There’s a difference between picking up the phone and interrupting someone in the middle of their workday as opposed to sharing information with them via email. I think all publishers are doing is taking advantage of the fact that a whole lot of attention is being spent in email apps just the way it’s being spent in browsers and in social media platforms and occasionally, people want to break from whatever they’re using email normally for. Right? Whether it’s work or personal stuff or whatever else.
Megan: (08:23) Alright. So, let’s turn it over to Eva and her insights about how they’re building email at Quartz. I think the power of direct traffic is that it’s an environment that you own. You’re able to control the experience that you’re giving to readers and like we’ve talked about, it’s something that’s personal. It’s something that hasn’t changed for a while and it’s something that you can do on your own time asynchronously.
I spoke with Eva about how she and her team are experimenting with email and about the newsletter metrics that matter to them. We talked a lot about an email that I’m personally a big fan of called Obsession, which is a daily newsletter that goes into a niche topic.
In order to build Obsession, they’re really in tune with responding to reader feedback and even incorporating it to shape the newsletter product.
Eva: (09:13) There’s a beautiful communication right now between us and our readers. I basically am exposed to this through reading what people email back to us. People are emailing us all day long. They love us. Sometimes they hate us. Sometimes they’re correcting us.
Megan: (09:28) One of the things I’m wondering is if it was what you had wanted from the get go, or if it was a happy by-product of creating the newsletters, is that volume of reader response. Were you setting out to engage readers to the newsletter? Or, was the amount of comments that you’re getting back something that came as a surprise to you and the team?
Eva: (09:48) We definitely expected for the core Obsession specifically, we were not prepared for the amount of people who wanted to speak to us. And so very quickly after we launched, we had to meet, it was the product designer, myself and the editor of the email and I think a fellow who was helping us with producing it and pushing it out.
And so we had a meeting and we said, okay, we do not want to lose out on this. We can see the community forming right before our eyes. We don’t even know what to do with them. And so we basically started sketching out how to solve this. We just needed a channel for this information to live. We need them to be able to communicate to us in a way that makes them feel heard. Those were our bullet points.
What we did was we said, okay, we are going to … we basically started reading people’s responses that were coming in and we were like, okay, we can basically put in three buckets. There are people who are responding to very specific content, so maybe we can actually focus those and turn them into prompts. Maybe we should just be asking them questions since they want to talk. And then we can also group it into feedback. If there is something that we missed about a story, and they are like, I’m actually in this part of the world right now and you’re missing this key element. We would like that information. We can’t be everywhere at once.
That turned into, how can we have our readers help us report a little bit? That was a bucket. And then, just ideas. I want you to cover this. I want this to be in Obsession. I want to learn more about this became a bucket.
That turned into a sound off card which we added to the email which was basically a very, very low lift. It was like we made a prompt. We said, here’s the way you give us feedback. Here’s the way you give us new ideas of what you want us to cover. And all it is a mail-to link where you click it and it opens up a pre-composed email which is a very, very simple thing to build. And that way they could right away send it off to us.
So then, we just took a Gmail inbox and we created three filters of feedback, prompt responses and ideas and that’s what exists. That was enough to be like, okay, we are putting them somewhere safe and when we have the capacity, we can go in and then use that material back in. But this is a very small team of people. At that point, there was only one person writing the email and editing it and doing everything.
The design team, engineering team, and the product manager and myself, we have a billion other projects going on as well. That was sort of like we need to solve this immediately. What can we do about it? And this what we ended on.
Megan: (12:19) I want to dive into a specific example of an Obsession email because I think—and talking about it will hit on all these things that you’ve mentioned—how many people and how many departments go into creating an email? How is this reader engagement growing and how does it inform design? I’m very curious to talk about the Mezcal Obsession newsletter, which is one that we’d been talking about earlier because of how it was built off of a reader’s reply. Could you tell us a little bit about that specific email?
Eva: (12:50) Yeah. After we were collecting people’s emails and, once in a while reading through, there’s a majority of them that are just not that useful information. Curious and really cool that they want to talk to us about it, but then there is one every 20 responses that’s gold. And then we’re in Slack sharing it with one another like, I can’t believe this reader knows this. Do you think it’s true? Are they smarter than us? Oh, my God.
That turned into let’s figure out how to recycle it into the email. The mezcal email was basically the turning point of really high engagement because we proved to the readers that we are totally listening. We are totally reading responses and we’re even picking things to publish. That’s a really cool thing that we built into our process and so this was the one that was our favorite.
We had done a few reader responses in the emails before this, but this was definitely like, I mean we all were like, we nailed it. And so, basically, a few emails before this, we had, you know, everyday we’d make a prompt. We would just ask each other, what would be a teaser. We don’t want to give away the upcoming topic. A few days before we knew we were going to publish this email, it was like, okay, let’s read through and see if there’s potential and answers to a specific question. And that question ended up being, “Tell us about your favorite mezcal recipes.”
Or, we may have made it a little bit more subtle. But it nodded to mezcal without telling you were about to write an email about mezcal. And so, we found an incredible response by this woman named Katy. Not only did she give us the recipe for a cocktail that sounded delicious, she was like, I study this and it’s so important. It was like she had so much richness in that response and we were just amazed. And we were like, oh, my gosh, we have to use this. This is valuable information that readers will want to know about.
And so it just fit really well publishing it with the email that we were already writing. It’s an acknowledgement to the fact that we totally got you. We are on it. And some of them do generally give us ideas or connect dots that we didn’t realize some people wanted to talk about.
Megan: (14:57) Is there a back and forth when you do get reader feedback and it starts to inform what you’re going to put into the newsletter? How it may be a new segment or—I don’t know if there’s a better word for it—a certain section in the newsletter. Is there ever a dialogue that goes between different members of your team in order to bring that to fruition?
Eva: (15:20) Oh, totally. We do lots of little explorations of what to do. We see that readers have needs; we need to translate that into action. An example is we noticed that people were really responding well when we would hyper-link a previous email that was from last year, or from before they had subscribed. Or it was just one they never got around to reading. We would pull that into a present email in some context. We would be like, oh, because remember we wrote about this and that’s actually connected to that.
People responded well and so we started thinking about, okay, how can we package these? We basically have this pile of information and we’re experimenting with how to package it so that people aren’t missing out. If they can’t read it every single day, it is a lot of information.
That’s one thing we are playing around with and those are constant, consistent conversations with editorial, where they’re like, did you guys like this? We just put these two things together. Should we frame it in a different way? Should we make this card more obvious? This is what we’re getting at. Should we put it in a different area of the email? Because they have the power to drag those cards around.
Questions like that are bounced back and forth all day long. There are things like, we have a sub-Reddit called Obsessive Obsessives. It’s very difficult for me to say. That’s a really cool place that came out of the growth team actually. They basically are exactly what they sound like; they focus a lot on qz.com and SEO solutions and optimizing for all these things. We are now getting a bit more resources for email which is really interesting to have someone serving that purpose.
We try the best we can to make it a two way street. I think that you don’t even have to be doing all the work of engaging, but you have to create at least the illusion that you are not just here to get ad clicks. You are not just here to get something from these people. You have to be giving to these readers before you ask for any information, before you ask for your surveys and your whatever.
I think e-commerce, it’s really difficult and that’s where they really struggle with … they’re constantly asking you for information and then they forget to give you things so then they’re just like throwing coupons at you. It feels like extra work, but it ultimately is the work because it’s the only thing that brings us to the long term loyalty that to Quartz is the value of the emails as a whole.
Megan: (17:52) Would you say that that’s one of the ultimate goals? Long-term loyalty?
Eva: (17:55) Yeah, yeah. So we’re looking at weekly active users as a metric right now. Getting you in the door is fabulous and we should totally invest resources in doing that, but if you’re not staying in the door, you are not worth that much to us long term.
Megan: (18:13) It’s really interesting talking to you about challenges both on a product specific level and then more generally. Thinking about creating newsletters and collaborating with people and people all over the world and how you do that, as well as you want to go for breadth as well as depth and how do you reach more people and so I think a lot of content creators, publishers, brands, like all kinds of organizations have been looking to email especially recently, especially as a backlash I think form social referral traffic and all kinds of other things that you can’t depend on as much, kind of turning to newsletters as a new source of growth, of loyalty, of revenue.
Are there things that you’ve picked up along the way that you think are challenges that other publishers should keep in mind? Or, maybe some things that are specific to creating newsletters that you think publishers maybe don’t think about until they actually dive in and start the process?
Eva: (19:10) Email is such an archaic system and it’s very limited. But honestly, when there are limitations, there is so much opportunity for creativity because the constraints are right in front of you. When there are requirements, there is action. We cannot do this. We can do this. Great. Let’s figure it out.
I honestly think that there’s definitely opportunity to think of email as a community shaper. I think traditionally it’s like Facebook, Twitter, Reddit, that’s where community lives. Forums, comment sections, that equals community because it’s visual. You can see it. You can like it. And you can follow it. It’s such a tangible community that you can see through tagging and things.
And so, I think we just need to get out of that a little bit. If we do not trust Facebook’s algorithms anymore, if we don’t want to depend on search and if we’re feeling like we need to be liberated from that, then we need to understand that a platform like email is an incredible tool because there’s no monopoly. Yes, Gmail is kind of a monopoly, but the actual architecture of how email works is the same across the board. They way unsubscribing works mechanically, all of these things are the same. It’s an even playing field. No one has an advantage because email is annoying for everybody. But there are things you can do. You can play with the time. You can play with color and typography and content. It’s like when you get a project from a professor and he tells you to do whatever you want. That’s the most impossible thing to accomplish. But for very specific constraints, I know that this is now not a possibility and this is. Now these are all the things that I can control.
Where as Facebook and Google Search and all these things, we feel like there’s a lack of control. You have so much opportunity to control on email as long as you know the rules and you know what works,which does take experimentation and knowledge. And things do change. Gmail has an update and then everything breaks. That happens to me constantly. They have things like email clippings where they’ll just completely cut your email off after a certain size. Yahoo doesn’t do that, but Yahoo has separate problems.
There is a distinction and we need to understand the platform. If we’re like, “Email is the new thing. We have to push, push, push things in front of people. That’s where you get the views.” Yeah, that’s the way you’re going to get the views right now, but the minute you start annoying these people, it’s a very high risk situation. If you ruin your relationship with this reader off of your first email, there’s no way to get that back like there is in other platforms.
Once you’re seen as annoying in an inbox, that’s your sacred spot. If you are seen as annoying, very unlikely you’re going to get that reputation back. Thinking of it as a journey, if you’re using email then you need to be like, how am I using email and what do I hate about email? I hate when subject lines are tacky. Or I hate when x thing happens. And being in touch with that because there’s no expert super power company who’s going to tell us all about email like there is for Facebook and Twitter and all these things where it’s, well, we just have to deal with the tides. No, you can totally take ownership over the email environment and the platform.
Megan: (22:30) From experimenting with Obsessions, specifically, we’ve been talking a lot about it. Have you seen any growth there or any exciting stats around the newsletter as time as time has gone on?
Eva: (22:45) Yeah. Our weekly active users are definitely growing. A lot. Not allowed to share that information. They are growing so that’s really, really motivating honestly. We have, I did pull this data which is that 10,000 people over last year, or from September 2017 to September 2018. That was the first year of the Obsession email. 10,000 people, individual people, have written to us and engaged with us in a very tangible way. These are not like, hi, you made a typo. These are real conversations.
That was a really interesting thing. That data wasn’t actually in front of me. I ended up just going to the inbox and calculating it. Really, really awesome. It’s difficult. It’s not like we’re seeing these people. It’s difficult to feel like this information is always being heard.
Twitter is great. A way to see how people react and how they share it themselves. But that was a really interesting. I mean, 10,000 people to take the time to type something out to us—there’s no comment section. They had to type something for real into an email and send it and click that and all those things. So that was a really cool piece of data.
Megan: (24:03) I love that every kind of piece of what you could, what is technically data, whether it’s somebody writing back in or it is open read or whatever it may be, you’re thinking about in the context of it’s a person, like there’s somebody in their experience that is creating this number or this action and it’s not just that. It’s more than that.
Eva: (24:24) Yeah. And it honestly is hard to remember because it’s not like on Facebook where we have faces, like full names even. You’ve got these obscure email addresses that sometimes—
Megan: (24:33) Over 700,000 of them.
Eva: (24:35) Yeah. You have a lot of email addresses and some people are like, love us sometimes and other people don’t. Like I got an email the other day from someone who was like, I unsubscribed because I was on like a digital fast, but now I’m like super-stressed because my fast is over and I really want the email back. And I was like, oh my, that’s adorable. They disappeared but they were like, take me back.
And that was a very human moment. And I think part of my job is making sure that the humanity behind the readers is surfaced and thought about. When we’re thinking about what tests we want to run or we’re thinking about money we might put behind a paid promotion—just remembering that there are actually people and so, we need to figure out what’s important to the people.
Megan: (25:34) I thought it was interesting that Eva and her team were so in tune with their readers and the fact that 10,000 people wrote to them in the first year really stood out to me.
As company founders and creators of products, has there ever been a time when user feedback or responses from people have influenced you? Influenced your way of thinking? Influenced design at Parse.ly?
Andrew: (26:02) Oh, yeah. In general, that’s the way startups build products that people want is by just going out there with something small and then listening to what they say and how they react to it. I think you’d find that if you talk to anyone who has to bring products to market that that’s like the key way you iterate on it.
I think what’s so great about media companies and the way they can do this is that the barrier to entry for usage of an email newsletter or even a news article or some piece of content that you put online is really, really low. Almost anyone can sign up for that. And so, you can get feedback really, really easily from big scales of people. So yeah, I think that’s actually one of the great things about newsletters for media companies is that everyone who’s getting that message is identified and there is even the possibility to encourage them to reply to the newsletter and ask questions and this way you get that one to one relationship with your reader where you probably wouldn’t get that same person necessarily writing on a comment thread, because a comment thread is truly public and it’s like they’re posting it to the internet forever. It’s not really a relationship with the creators of the content itself. Which I think a different kind of person is willing to share their time and their feedback with people that way.
Sachin: (27:24) I think you also have to follow up with that promise which I think Eva was talking about when she was discussing giving value, forgetting value. That’s actually, you talked about how that relates back to building product and building a company. That’s absolutely what you have to think about when you’re in the earlier stages and even now. What value are we actually giving to our customer set, you know, be so presumptuous to ask them for money.
In this case, you’re not asking for money, but you are asking for a slice of time that is very valuable for them and a portion of their day or a portion of their screen or a portion of their tool, which in this case is email. Which is also very intimate to them. So, you have to not only get them to subscribe, but that email that they get, that first newsletter, and you’re always getting new people every single time you send out a newsletter, has to be so important they they’re going to read that.
And then the next time, they’re going to come back and say, that was really good. I’m going to read this one, too. That’s I think how you build that type of loyalty, because it is that intimate space. It is that place where you have a shot at gaining them and you probably don’t have very many other shots after that, so you have to make sure they see that value front and center.
Andrew: (28:47) So, Sachin, I think it’s time to take a trip down memory lane. Let’s do some plus ones and minus ones.
Sachin: (28:52) We’re clearly not in the mobile first generation here, but we do have experience with other forms of technology and things that for me bring back a lot of nostalgia. So, let’s go through a few different things that are going to be nostalgic certainly for me and hopefully for you, too, Andrew.
Let’s start off with one of the things that I have very strong memories about which is using AIM, or using MySpace. Which one brings up more nostalgia for you?
Andrew: (29:24) Definitely AIM for me. AIM was like my entire high school social network, basically.
Sachin: (29:31) AIM for me, too. AOL Instant Messenger for life. Who cares about MySpace and whatever music you play.
Andrew: (29:37) Yeah, the funny thing about AIM is apparently they only shut it down a couple of years ago and there were still a lot of users apparently. These things can stick around for quite some time.
Sachin: (29:48) Let’s move on to the next one. Blockbuster versus Netflix DVD rentals. For those that don’t know, Netflix used to be a DVD rental service where you got mailed a physical DVD instead of getting all your content streamed. And Blockbuster used to be a store that you could go to to rent VHS and, I guess, a little bit later on, DVDs.
Andrew: (30:11) Yeah, so for me, when Netflix DVD was in its prime was I guess was in high school for me, yeah, I guess that’s right. In high school. I would say that I still personally enjoyed going to Blockbuster for the instant gratification, but I used to get all my like, sort of, art house movies from Netflix DVD rentals, because I could plan those in advance and have them coming on the weekend. But I would still say, at the time anyway, Blockbuster was the winner just in terms of which one had me watching more movies on a regular basis.
Sachin: (30:44) But with Netflix, man, there was something about the queue that was just like really exciting to me about having your queue of DVDs that would be coming and I loved to rearrange that queue, and then our family would fight over the positions there. So, I actually think I have more memories with the Netflix queue than I do with Blockbuster itself.
Alright mix tapes or mix CDs?
Andrew: (31:07) I kind of mix the mix tape era personally. I think this maybe was just like an age thing. I don’t know.
Sachin: (31:14) No, it wasn’t an age thing because we’re the same age and I was definitely all over mix tapes.
Andrew: (31:17) You were?
Sachin: (31:18) Yeah.
Andrew: (31:18) Yeah. I guess it’s just like maybe I personally didn’t get into music until high school that much. Maybe it’s something like that but I don’t know. But yeah, I’m all mix CDs. I used to have a CD burner. Burned a lot of CDs like, kind of like bought, I think I remember a CD player for my car in high school so that I could play my burn CDs on it and things like that. So yeah, lots of mix CDs.
Sachin: (31:44) I had a friend who actually gave me a mix tape in college. So, it went all the way through high school into college. I’m definitely a fan of a good mix tape. There’s nostalgia all over that.
Megan: (31:58) That’s it for this episode. Thanks for listening and our thanks to Eva Scazzero for joining us as a guest. Good news! We’re now on Spotify. So, you can subscribe to the Center of Attention there and on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or SoundCloud. If you enjoyed the show, please tell a colleague or tell a friend. Send it to their inbox. You can also follow our hosts on Twitter. Andrew is @Amontalenti and Sachin is @SachinKamdar. Thanks for listening and remember it’s AIM or aim…no one knows for sure. Until next time.